Pro bono publico in Canada | S3 EP6
Disputed - Discussions to keep your business risk-ready
July 26, 2023
Disputed episodes
Ted Brook joins Andrew as a guest co-host for this episode. You may remember hearing Ted on the Prompt payment episode in S2. Ted is a senior associate in Toronto whose practice focuses on class actions, environmental litigation and complex commercial disputes. Ted is also involved in a number of pro bono projects, including a Charter challenge over the constitutionality of our first-past-the-post voting system.
Grace Pastine, KC, recently joined the firm to lead our Pro Bono practice. Grace was the litigation director of the BC Civil Liberties Association where she was responsible for all matters involving prisoners’ rights, police abuse and medical assistance in dying. She also directed interventions in over 100 cases before the Supreme Court of Canada on human rights and civil liberty issues.
CPD credits: This episode is accredited 0.67 professionalism hours in Ontario and 0.67 substantive hours in British Columbia.
At its core, pro bono refers to lawyers’ broader duty to give back to communities, helping to bridge the gap in access to justice. There is no shortage of opportunity for lawyers to help people in need in this country, and that’s where the pro bono committee at Norton Rose Fulbright, led by Grace Pastine, KC, steps in. Grace is the firm’s Pro Bono Counsel (the role itself is a first of its kind in the country) and she joins us to share how she is developing the firm’s pro bono program and how she sources and evaluates requests for pro bono assistance.
Ted Brook joins Andrew as a guest co-host for this episode. You may remember hearing Ted on the Prompt payment episode in S2. Ted is a senior associate in Toronto whose practice focuses on class actions, environmental litigation and complex commercial disputes. Ted is also involved in a number of pro bono projects, including a Charter challenge over the constitutionality of our first-past-the-post voting system.
Grace Pastine, KC, recently joined the firm to lead our Pro Bono practice. Grace was the litigation director of the BC Civil Liberties Association where she was responsible for all matters involving prisoners’ rights, police abuse and medical assistance in dying. She also directed interventions in over 100 cases before the Supreme Court of Canada on human rights and civil liberty issues.
CPD credits: This episode is accredited 0.67 professionalism hours in Ontario and 0.67 substantive hours in British Columbia.
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Transcript:
Andrew McCoomb 00:00
Ailsa is looking at me because I'm going to kick it off and say…
Ailsa Robertson 00:03
You realize that I'm not hosting this one.
Andrew McCoomb 00:05
Well, what do you mean? I don't realize that.
Ailsa Robertson 00:07
No, it's you and Ted.
Andrew McCoomb 00:09
Okay, well, then you should--, you should--, you should go off camera and stop making faces at me. Well, then then it's over to you, Ted, you can welcome Grace to the podcast.
Ted Brook 00:18
But you know, should--should I be welcoming? This is my first time co-hosting.
Andrew McCoomb 00:25
That's fine.
Ailsa Robertson 00:28
Hello, and welcome back to Disputed, a Norton Rose Fulbright podcast, and we have some changes to announce. In addition to myself and Andrew McCoomb, we're excited to welcome two new co-hosts whose voices you will hear over the coming months. Our first new voice is co-hosting this episode alongside Andrew. His name is Ted Brook. Ted was a guest last year on our episode about payment disputes in the construction industry. He's a senior associate in Toronto whose practice focuses on class actions, environmental litigation and complex commercial disputes. Now in addition to his corporate practice, Ted is also involved in a number of pro bono projects, including a case at the moment challenging whether Canada's first-past-the-post system is constitutional. Pro bono is the topic of this episode. The full term is pro bono publico, for the public good. It’s the idea that lawyers have an ethical obligation to help those who otherwise would not be able to afford representation. In the US and the UK, there is a well-developed culture of pro bono among corporate law firms. And while there are elements of that culture in Canada, such as through our participation in legal advice clinics, it is fair to say that it's not as traditionally integrated into private practice. But, we believe that that is changing. And this episode explores the steps that are being taken to bridge the gap between what we do as a corporate law firm, and providing services for the public good. Our guest speaker for this episode is King's Counsel, Grace Pastine. Grace has recently joined the firm as our pro bono counsel, and her role is the first of its kind in this country. Grace's work aims to promote access to justice, develop partnerships with charities and legal services organizations, and identify new ways to connect the firm's resources to community needs. Before joining the firm, Grace was the litigation director for the BC Civil Liberties Association, where for 15 years, she advanced human rights and civil liberties through impact litigation - spurring reforms relating to patient's rights, police accountability, and prisoners’ rights. In this episode, Grace, Ted and Andrew share stories on the public interest work that they and others at our firm are doing, and consider how we can increase access to justice in this country, including working with our corporate clients to achieve these goals. Some key questions we consider include, what does it mean to act in the public interest or for the public good? And how do we determine the most meaningful pro bono projects to devote our time and resources to? And how can your organization partner with Norton Rose Fulbright to get involved in these initiatives?
Andrew McCoomb 03:10
Grace, welcome to the podcast. Ted, welcome back to the podcast as a guest host, it's great to have you back.
Ted Brook 03:18
Thank you. I feel like I have-- I got a promotion.
Andrew McCoomb 03:21
Speaking of which, we would be remiss if we didn't start by congratulating you, Grace, on your recent appointment to King's Counsel. That's phenomenal.
Grace Pastine 03:32
Oh, thank you. I'm—I'm very honoured by the designation. And it's great to join you both here today. Thanks so much for having me.
Andrew McCoomb 03:41
We're very excited about this episode, and to dig into what you do and what the pro bono practice looks like. What does pro bono mean, in your practice? What does the term mean? I think we all use it, we probably misuse it or misunderstand it. Can you give us your sense?
Grace Pastine 04:00
Absolutely. Well, I think at its core, pro bono is about giving back to the communities where we live and work. And it's based on the recognition that as lawyers we hold privileged place in society, we have a unique role in respect to the courts and upholding democratic institutions and ensuring that fundamental human rights are respected. So I think at-- at its core, pro bono is about giving back and providing legal services to people that otherwise would not be able to afford them.
Ted Brook 04:41
One of the things that, you know, stands out for me, Grace, is how everyone kind of knows pro bono means free, right? It's kind of in the common parlance. But the word that gets missed a lot is that the full Latin phrase pro bono is pro bono publico, right? It's for the public good. So-- so you're doing some type of free legal service, but there's-- there's a social bent behind it. Right? There's-- it's not just a transactional type of legal service, you're-- you're-- you're identifying some type of service right to society or-- or-- or some organization that you feel is advancing the public good.
Grace Pastine 05:26
Yeah, I think that's, that's absolutely right. That quite central to the legal profession is this notion that there's a particular ethical obligation for lawyers to be helping those who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford a lawyer, and to help bridge the-- the justice gap that-- that we're experiencing in this country.
Andrew McCoomb 05:54
So Grace, your role with the firm is unique, and it's kind of the first of its kind in Canada as pro bono counsel. And I'm interested to hear you refer to that justice gap that you just mentioned. I mean, we work for a very large multinational law firm. I don't know that people always presume a strong connection between the idea of what it is that we maybe do on our website and a concept like trying to bridge a gap and access to justice. But can you tell us how that objective connects into your practice?
Grace Pastine 06:31
Well, first of all, at Norton Rose Fulbright, I think pro bono is central to what we do and central to who we are. But you're right, there are, you know, it's not necessarily what people think of when they think of a global elite law firm. But I think there's a real recognition on behalf of the firm that we—we’re experiencing an access to justice crisis in this country, that the vast majority of people cannot afford a lawyer, and that there are important and meaningful ways in which our lawyers can help bridge that gap. And there's a very strong commitment on behalf of the firm to do that work, and to fill that gap.
Andrew McCoomb 07:28
Let's dive into that a bit more. I mean, what do pro bono services actually tend to involve?
Grace Pastine 07:37
Pro bono really extends across all of our practice areas, we have lawyers that are doing pro bono work that is kind of the traditional type of, you know, constitutional litigation that you might typically think of when you think of pro bono. We have lawyers who are providing transactional legal services to people that otherwise would not be able to afford them. Immigration matters, matters on behalf of low-income tenants, there's really a huge variety of pro bono work that lawyers at our firm are doing, and it-- it spans all of our practice areas.
Ted Brook 08:26
Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, Grace. I mean, just from, from my perspective, in the litigation group, the ways that we can contribute to pro bono initiatives are kind of, you know, more obvious than those that some of our colleagues in the other practice groups have. And sometimes the response I get from-- from our colleagues in corporate, or tax, or IP, is sort of like, well, you have it easy, you know, you can go advocate for someone in court doing your normal job, but in a public interest case. What can we do in corporate, or as a lawyer in IP, to help pro bono clients? I don't know, is that something you kind of come across that that initial resistance? And if so, what do you do about it when you're sort of exploring these opportunities?
Grace Pastine 09:20
That is a concern that lawyers on the business side often raise, like, what kind of pro bono is available to me? And, you know, the fact is, is that there-- there aren't as many well-developed opportunities outside of the litigation practice areas, but there's still a lot. And so I'll give you an example of some work that lawyers in our Vancouver office are doing. Robert Hansen, Tammy Chu and Nate Misri are exploring a partnership with the Black Entrepreneurs and Businesses of Canada Society, the BEBC. The BEBC is a fantastic organization, they're a black-led nonprofit organization, and they represent black businesses in Canada. Essentially, what they're trying to do is help black businesses grow and scale up and become sustainable. So our lawyers are working with the BEBC to develop a clinic-like model essentially, to provide those of its members who are of limited means with some practical and timely corporate and commercial legal advice. So you know the-- the areas where our lawyers will be able to help members of the BEBC could include everything from business structures, to employment issues, to intellectual property, these types of things. So this is really an example where our firm is recognizing that there aren't as many kind of ready-made pro bono opportunities for corporate transactional lawyers at our firm, but there's a huge pressing need in our communities for that, for pro bono legal services in those areas. And so our, you know, enterprising lawyers at our firm are helping to develop that-- that work.
Andrew McCoomb 11:29
And how does your role intersect with that effort of people who are looking, I mean, we have the supply, obviously, within the firm of people looking to do something to help their community, how are you working, Grace, in your role to sort of connect them with demand?
Grace Pastine 11:46
So my role at the firm, and you’re right, it's a unique role amongst firms in Canada, is to lead our pro bono practice. And a key part of that is helping to develop pro bono opportunities, and working very closely with organizations in our communities that are addressing kind of critical needs, that Canadians are facing. So, I introduced our lawyers to the Black Entrepreneurs and Businesses of Canada Society, that's kind of one example of the type of work I do. I-- I work with other organizations, like Prisoner’s Legal Services, with some of the, you know, with access to justice organizations across the country, with another example is the Canadian Centre for Housing Rights. And Andrew, I really am interested to hear you speak about kind of your work with them.
Andrew McCoomb 12:53
I was going to say, Grace, I mean, in part, I'm asking you a question to which I know the answer. This is really interesting. You and I sat down a little while after you started, and you were touring our offices and connecting with people. And we had a pretty interesting, I thought, very open conversation about my sort of views on pro bono work and what I was interested in doing. And one of the things that you and I talked about was my impression that, you know, living in Toronto right now, it is, in my view, and I think the view of many other people, a city suffering from many overlapping crises right now. There's a mental health crisis, there are housing affordability crisis issues all over the place. And it's a city that's struggling, and it doesn't take much more than a walk down the street, any given street, to see that and to feel drawn to try to find a way to correct that in some way. And so you and I had a fantastic conversation about those issues and what they meant to us. And then you came back to me with-- with this connection to the Canadian Centre for Housing Rights, and the opportunity to work on helping individual families keep their homes in a challenging moment in their lives. And you know, I'm currently working with a family that suffers from—they are at risk of being homeless in their circumstances, they suffer from disability-related issues and, and other factors and having, you know, having a partner from a large law firm, a litigator, albeit little old me, but-- but someone with my credentials, at least show up and be fighting in their corner, I have to imagine, and they've been kind enough to communicate to us that it’s very inspiring and confidence building for them in a very difficult moment. And so, it's just one of those things where you and I spoke, and my impression was, and I think you and I agreed on this, that we want to look for opportunities to put our practical skills to the greatest use. And candidly, for me, I don't know if that would be making submissions at the Supreme Court so much as it would be making sort of last ditch efforts to help somebody keep their house and to each their own. Facilitating those relationships is so interesting. I mean, Ted, I know you as well are busy in this space, doing some work. Can you tell us about what you got going on?
Ted Brook 15:23
Yeah, and again, a lot of my pro bono activity has been because of Grace, the great connector within our-- within our firm, kind of like identifying these organizations and opportunities to give back. So I mean, for starters, I've done work with Pro Bono Ontario for-- for many years, volunteering with the hotline, Pro Bono Ontario is an organization that provides summary legal service to low-income Ontarians. And one of the ways that they do that is through a sort of hotline where people who-- who can't afford a lawyer are able to call in and spend 30 minutes asking about-- about legal problems and getting, you know, advice, or at least some-- some help identifying what the issues are from a legal perspective. And it could be consumer protection, could be going to court, it could be housing, it could be problems they have at work. And so I volunteer with that organization, and I know a number of the lawyers in our firm do. Grace, you're organizing an event with Pro Bono Ontario, and one of our clients coming up later this month, right?
Grace Pastine 16:41
Yes, that's right. We're doing-- a we're co-sponsoring every Wednesday in July with BMO, Bank of Montreal, and BMO lawyers, and Norton Rose Fulbright lawyers are coming together to staff the hotline. And so BMO approached us and said, would you like to sponsor this event with us? And we said, absolutely. So it's great you've been doing that work for so long, Ted, that hotline serves such an important role in Ontario, for addressing people's basic legal needs. So, so great, you've been doing that. And I'm really glad that you'll be participating in our sponsored month of pro bono also.
Andrew McCoomb 17:34
And Ted, you mentioned as well, just a little bit earlier, you know, the tension of-- of advocacy work. But I think that's an area that a lot of people appreciate as being a place where a lot of good pro bono work gets done, especially when it comes to public interest litigation. Either of you, or both of you, I invite you to talk about sort of your charter challenge work. What's that like? What are you trying to accomplish? What's going on right now in that space?
Ted Brook 18:04
Yeah, so I'm sure Grace could talk for hours about her work with the BCCLA. But my-- my kind of current experience is, we are representing Apathy is Boring, which is a non-partisan charity, that works to support and educate youth to become active, contributing citizens in the democracy. And we're representing them as an intervener in a superior court case in which the applicants are challenging provisions of the Canada Elections Act. So this is a voting rights case and it's about our electoral system. It's really as fundamental as you can get of a voting rights case in Canada. The question for the court is about whether our first-past-the-post system at the federal level violates section three and section 15 of the charter. And there are a number of intervenors of sort of secured status to appear in front of the court and make submissions about what they think should be taken into account by the judge. And what we're doing, is we're working with Apathy is Boring to essentially ensure that their voice gets heard in this case. So they have a very unique perspective, obviously, as a, you know, the country's largest bilingual, youth-led organization that's committed to engaging youth and democracy. They have a lot to say about the electoral system and its effects on young Canadians, how it can pose challenges to getting them engaged, the structural challenges to getting youth engaged, and so we're working with them to sort of translate their message into legal argument and to guide them through the court process. And I'll just add that, you know, Apathy is not a serial intervener, right? They don't do these sorts of court cases every single month, every single year, they're-- they're not an active participant in litigation. And so we're really, you know, guiding them and helping them making sure that their important message gets taken into account by the judge.
Andrew McCoomb 20:24
And the sort of boom in interverner’s rights being granted over the past number of years. I mean, I've seen that happen. I've seen how good it's been, for young advocates getting an opportunity on sort of the biggest scale to get up on their feet to handle very important issues, to brief things in the way that intricate, and incredibly deep way you have to breathe issues to be able to speak to that court. That, I gather Grace, that it's not just intervention work that we're able to do as well, that we've got party litigation for public interest litigation as well.
Grace Pastine 20:59
Yes, we do. One really interesting example of that and an important example, is a lawyer in our Vancouver office, Lindsey Wilson, is representing a man who's in prison and he approached our firm because he was sexually assaulted by prison guards. And Lindsay is representing him in a civil challenge, that includes allegations that his charter rights were violated by prison officials and by guards. And so I mean, that's an example of where we're representing a party and a piece of litigation. The case was originally referred to us by Prisoners’ Legal Services, and that is an organization that runs a legal clinic for prisoners in British Columbia. And they're also very active in advocating for the rights of people in prison across the country. And they highlighted for us, a really pressing need for legal counsel, and the fact that the kind of abuse that he suffered in prison was really a systemic issue that their clients were repeatedly facing. And that had been, you know, has been called out over many years in, you know, various governmental reports, and reports by the correctional investigator. And so that they thought that this was a really important opportunity to be helping one person whose rights were violated, as well as be pushing to have these abuses and imprisoned. So that's an example of another type of litigation that our firm’s involved in.
Andrew McCoomb 23:00
It's incredible. I mean, just as an aside, I'll say this, and listeners to this podcast won't be surprised to hear me say something relatively cynical, but leaving aside how vital that is to the client in that case, that project, for us to be involved in, I'm also hearing you describe that, Grace, in my, I've got my manager hat on, and I'm thinking about, you know, how challenging it can be to work on Bay Street to work on corporate matters, to put in the long hours, but to have something like that in your file list, that is that vital for an associate to be working on a project like that, Lindsay is brilliant, and to have that as part of her stable of files as a change of pace, and it's something that's going to give her purpose. I just-- it has to be one of those things, that's going to be a huge stabilizer and energizer and thing to look forward to in in one's practice. So this is sort of this exciting other dynamic about how people can be motivated by working on these things and feel like it's really rounding them out personally and professionally.
Grace Pastine 24:09
Absolutely. And a lot of our lawyers, you know, at the firm, they, they bring with them a lot of pre-existing connections to community organizations to commitments, deep commitments to causes and issues they've worked on over many years. And pro bono can be an opportunity for them to continue those commitments.
Andrew McCoomb 24:36
Hey, can you-- Grace, can you tell me do you have an insight into how our pro bono culture compares with the pro bono culture either in the firm or firms generally in the US, because I get the sense that there's a bit of a distinction in how the subject is approached.
Grace Pastine 24:54
I think in the US, there is a really well-developed culture of pro bono. And there's probably a variety of reasons for that. And a very strong commitment on behalf of firms of all sizes, whether they're small, medium, or large, to give back in very significant ways. I think that culture of pro bono also exists in Canada, but I don't think it as it is quite as well-developed. For example, my role is the first of its kind in this country, whereas in the US, virtually every large firm has a pro bono counsel, and sometimes a whole team of pro bono counsel, that are working on client initiatives, bringing in opportunities for their lawyers, that type of thing.
Andrew McCoomb 25:51
And I have to imagine the opportunities to connect with our clients who, in many cases won't have access to that same resourcing level on the supply and that pipeline that you're building of opportunity, the clients have to-- they're feeling the same personal and professional and community draw. And I have to imagine there's demand on their side, like we talked about with the-- with the pro bono hotline project for this summer, to try to collaborate on a on a greater and greater scale. That's just sort of good for business and good for everybody.
Grace Pastine 26:25
Absolutely, yeah, increasingly, clients are approaching us and they're asking, what can we-- what can we do, what can we do together? How can in terms of pro bono, you know, our clients have their very strong community interests, they have their, you know, key strategic priorities when it comes to, you know, giving back and engaging in pro bono.
Ted Brook 26:52
Yeah, yeah, that's true, there's no one right reason to do pro bono work. And there's no one type of pro bono work.
Grace Pastine 27:02
That's right, it's-- sorry, and maybe I would just add, you know, sometimes it's the situation where it will be a partner who has, you know, a very sophisticated, unique area of practice. And that's the area where they want to be doing pro bono work. And so I don't want to at all give the impression that our pro bono practice is entirely you know, associates who are doing some things for the first time. Partners play a huge role in helping to create a culture of pro bono at our firm. So it means a lot when you know, our heads of litigation are, like Andrew, or Jennifer Teskey, or Linda Fuerst, are doing pro bono work themselves, are participating in the pro bono hotline, or are representing low income tenants who are about to be evicted from their homes, it sends the message to everyone at the firm - we value pro bono, it's an important part of your practice, and yes, do it.
Ted Brook 28:15
So Grace, I want to spend a minute or two, just drilling down on the differences in sort of similarities between what I would call, civil litigation or commercial litigation for paying clients and pro bono litigation or public interest litigation, when-- when we're working with a client in that context. So from my perspective, and my experience is actually there's more similarities than differences, right? You-- you're working for your client, whether it's pro bono, or-- or a regular fee paying clients, you're getting instructions in both contexts, you're giving advice, and you're incorporating their objectives. And you're trying to win in court at the end of the day, right, you may have a different goal, perhaps in public interest litigation. In a charter challenge, you're trying to have a statute struck down. But in the commercial litigation context, you may be trying to have a contract declared annuity right. So you're, you're aiming for slightly different goals, but there's actually a lot of similarities and kind of how you build your case to get there. But so I'm wondering, are there differences? Or do you also see similarities between the commercial litigation that our firm does and the public interest litigation that we do in the pro bono context?
Grace Pastine 29:41
I think I tend to agree with you, Ted, that there are more similarities than differences. And, you know, of course, broadly speaking, not all public interest litigation is pro bono. There might be some litigation in the public interest, that would be for a paid client, maybe not so much at our firm, but certainly at other firms. But, you know, really central to our pro bono practice is this notion that we deliver the very same high-quality legal services to our clients, whether they are pro bono clients, or they are paying clients. And that is a message that our pro bono committee repeatedly sends to associates that are working on these matters, and to partners that, you know, as do I, and I think it's very much baked into the ethic of pro bono at this firm, whether it's pro bono or not, if you're a client of this firm, you receive the very highest level of service. One thing that does come up with pro bono clients who are engaged in litigation, is that the-- the disbursements involved in litigation are very high, especially for a person of limited means. And so this is a consideration that our lawyers need to have in mind, and we need to be discussing with our pro bono clients at-- before litigation even begins. Because while our firm provides free pro bono services, legal services, in most cases, we expect the clients will be able to cover disbursements. And so that's everything from, you know, a court filing fee of $150, which could be really a significant expense for some of our clients to…
Ted Brook 31:44
…an expert report even, you know, it's-- it's thousands of dollars.
Grace Pastine 31:49
Yeah, it could be tens of thousands of dollars for an expert-- expert report or, you know, paying for transcripts. So that's a consideration that is, I think, unique to our pro bono public interest litigation.
Ted Brook 32:06
Yeah, yeah. But it draws though, again, to look at those similarities. You know, we do our budgeting, and our estimating for our commercial litigation cases. So the clients understand, you know, where they're going to see expenses throughout the life of the file. And really what you have to be doing when you're working on a pro bono case is, keeping that in mind, you know, so that the client understands at the outset, but then also, as the case progresses, where might they have to pay out of pocket for certain fees as they move down the track.
Grace Pastine 32:36
That's right. I mean, it's incredibly important to just make sure that our pro bono clients are aware at the outset of what they can anticipate in terms of disbursements, and have really open conversations about whether that's a-- whether that's possible for them or not, and also help direct them to other resources. So, for example, we have some matters that have been referred to us through Access Pro Bono, which is the access to justice organization in British Columbia. They have some limited funding available for civil litigation matters, up to I think, a few thousand dollars, in some cases, that can help defer some of those disbursement costs, which is incredibly helpful. And in some provinces, you can also make applications to the court to have some court fees waived, which could be, which can also be very helpful for our clients.
Ted Brook 33:36
So, Grace, we've talked about how the demand for our services, sort of, you know, in some ways is greater than ever, with the access to justice crisis. If there are many of these opportunities, these pro bono opportunities out there, how do you and how does the firm sort of assess potential opportunities as viable ones or more meaningful ones that-- that our lawyers can work on? How do you choose what opportunities get our support and what don't?
Grace Pastine 34:10
Well, our firm has a pro bono policy, and that policy focuses our pro bono efforts on providing free legal services to people of limited means and to organizations of limited means. And so that's really the core of our pro bono practice, is providing legal assistance to people who might be the most vulnerable, the most marginalized, and who are the least able to afford legal services to, you know, uphold their essential legal rights. We also have a well-established pro bono committee. There are partners from every one of our offices that sit on that committee and that review requests for--, to engage in pro bono work. People on that committee have a long history of engaging in pro bono themselves and they have a very, you know, deep understanding of our firm's business needs, where we have areas of a conflict, and-- and where, you know, they think our pro bono work would be most valuable. We're a very entrepreneurial firm and that extends to pro bono as well. There are, you know, sometimes I am helping people source and identify really interesting pro bono mandates. Other times, it's associates and partners who are very-- who have important connections in the community, there are issues that they want to work on, and they identify things and bring it to my attention or bring it to the attention of a pro bono committee. And then we make a determination about whether it fits well within our firm's priorities for our pro bono practice.
Ted Brook 36:06
I want to pick up on something, Grace. I'm just curious, like, personally, you were practicing as a lawyer you were, before joining Norton Rose as pro bono counsel, the litigation director at a very esteemed civil liberties organization, you're going to the Supreme Court, you're testifying in Parliament, do you miss that now? Do you-- did you miss not getting to be at the forefront of those cases and leading them and playing this role of developing the program and coordinating other people doing that work?
Grace Pastine 36:43
Well, it's-- it's a great question. I mean, one thing that I really love is working with people developing programs, developing initiatives. And my role at the firm is-- is very much that. And a lot of what was satisfying about being a human rights or civil liberties litigator is also present in this work. In that it's a big part of the role is-- is connecting with civil liberties, human rights organizations, non-profit organizations, that are identifying the needs in the community and working with them to make change in the world. So, you know, in my previous role, we, you know, we'd frequently work with a whole variety of organizations, we worked with the John Howard Society on filing a charter challenge to the practice of long-term, indefinite solitary confinement. I think one thing that I've always really enjoyed about being a litigator and Ted, I'm sure you can probably relate to this, is that you really get to do a deep-- deep dive into certain issues. And so you, by the end, you just, you know them inside and out. And it's almost sort of a scholarly endeavor, if you will. And I find that really satisfying. But I think you know, more than anything, I just, I really, what my past role taught me is just the role that lawyers can play in supporting and upholding fundamental human rights and supporting democratic institutions, really the role that pro bono can play in our society. And so it's really-- that's all very transferable to the type of work that lawyers throughout our firm are doing now, with respect to their pro bono commitments.
Ted Brook 38:55
Now, Grace, I think that we are nearing our time. So I want to say thank you so much for speaking with Andrew and I today. And I also want to give you a chance to let-- let our listeners know like if-- if they are an organization that wants to partner with the firm on an initiative, or someone who is connected to a cause, or essentially just, you know, has a pro bono matter that they-- that they want to be considered by our pro bono committee, and then they think, you know, is in need of support, where do they go? Who do they contact? And sort of what do you recommend doing for a listener in that position?
Grace Pastine 39:41
Well, I would encourage folks that are in that position to just reach out to me directly, I'm probably the best placed person at the firm to help direct their request or their inquiry to other lawyers, to the pro bono committee, or to you know, help or to have a discussion with I'm about whether it's an area where we might be able to help. So I really encourage people to reach out to me.
Ted Brook 40:08
Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Grace.
Andrew McCoomb 40:10
Thank you. Thanks, Grace.
Grace Pastine 40:12
Thanks so much. It's been a real pleasure to be here and to talk with you about these issues.
Ailsa Robertson 40:18
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