S4 EP1 | Undisputed: Revealing 2024’s top litigation trends
What’s top of mind for litigation and disputes lawyers? Increased regulatory proceedings, rising class actions, and ever-growing concerns around ESG remain a priority for general counsel and in-house litigation leaders across Canada according to the Canadian findings from Norton Rose Fulbright’s 2024 Annual Litigation Trends Survey.
So, what does this mean for the future of litigation in 2024?
Our first episode of Undisputed, hosts Ted Brook, Partner, and Erin Brown, Senior Associate, dive into the survey insights and how to prepare for the challenges ahead, with François-David Paré - Partner, Canadian National Chair, Litigation and Disputes.
This episode is accredited 0.5 substantive hours in Ontario and 0.5 substantive hours in British Columbia.
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Transcript
[00:00:02] Ted Brook Welcome to Undisputed, a Norton Rose Fulbright podcast. I'm Ted Brook.
[00:00:09] Erin Brown And I'm Erin Brown.
[00:00:10] Ted Brook We're excited to be hosting this special mini series to unpack the findings of our firm's Annual Litigation Trends Report. For 19 years, our firm's research has tracked changes and trends defining the litigation landscape from dispute types and exposure to litigation preparedness and in-house legal staffing by surveying legal professionals at organizations of all sizes across key commercial sectors in Canada and the US.
[00:00:38] Erin Brown In Undisputed, we'll explore the emerging trends and insights concerning the litigation challenges industry leaders are facing in 2024. Hope you enjoy.
[00:00:49] Ted Brook Hello and welcome to Undisputed, a special mini series from the Disputed team. My name is Ted Brook and I'm joined by my co-host Erin Brown. Erin, how are you doing?
[00:01:02] Erin Brown I'm good. Do you know what this episode represents?
[00:01:06] Ted Brook I don't know. Is it the first anniversary of us recording together?
[00:01:09] Erin Brown It is the absolute first episode that we've ever recorded together as co-hosts. I'm hoping that our guest doesn't feel that he's he's our guinea pig today.
[00:01:18] Francois-David Pare I'm flattered, actually.
[00:01:20] Erin Brown So, with no further ado, we should introduce our guest for this first episode of Undisputed and our first time co-hosting together. We have Francois-David Pare, who is a partner at Norton Rose Fulbright and who is also the local chair of litigation and disputes for Montreal. Welcome, Francois-David.
[00:01:40] Francois-David Pare Well, thank you.
[00:01:41] Ted Brook Or welcome FDP, as he is affectionately known across our firm.
[00:01:47] Erin Brown Our first, you know, real substantive question for you to kick this off is, are we on the standard that we can call you FDP now?
[00:01:55] Francois-David Pare You sure can. Absolutely.
[00:01:59] Ted Brook I want to know FDP. How do I get to the level where people just know me by my initials? Like how how many cases did you have to win before people just started calling you by your initials?
[00:02:11] Francois-David Pare You know what? You only need a hyphenated French Canadian first name with a group of anglophones. And then people go just follow the path of least resistance and take the easy way out.
[00:02:23] Ted Brook Very excited to have you here on FDP. What we're doing with this special mini series is taking a look at the Norton Rose Fulbright 2024 Annual Litigation Trends Survey, aka the survey or the LTS, as I've heard it called another acronym, just for for anyone who's new to the survey. We've been publishing this for almost two decades, at Norton Rose Fulbright. It's sort of a bit like a Bible for our firm on current perspectives from corporate counsel and the trends in the North American, litigation market. Erin and I sort of want to learn more about it from from the experts, from people like you, FDP. And we're going to be talking to a few different litigators over the next couple of weeks about the specifics. So, Erin, I don't know, do you want to kick things off with with the question?
[00:03:12] Erin Brown So Francois-David, before we dive into the actual content of the survey, why don't you give our guests just a little flavor of what you and your and your practice and your role at Norton Rose Fulbright looks like.
[00:03:26] Francois-David Pare Oh. So I'm I'm a litigator, obviously. I'm the local chair of the Montreal Litigation Group. I've been practicing myself longer than the the survey has been standing. And I have a major, I'd say, in class actions and a minor in securities, but I do a whole bunch of various types of of litigations. But those will be my main areas of practice.
[00:03:52] Erin Brown And what about the litigation group in Montreal more broadly, I'm sure your colleagues, I know some of them quite well that I practice with. I know there's a great competition litigation specialty there in labor, kind of across the spectrum expertise.
[00:04:06] Francois-David Pare Absolutely. We probably have the largest litigation group in the city, and we cover almost any types of litigation. I was going to say, except for criminal. But we do we do penal, statutory penal cases. I was also going to say except for family law, but we did we did a landmark case in that area as well. So, I mean, we we basically covered the ground on our types of litigation. We have an amazing white collar practice, insolvency practice securities. We we we have we were an amazing team in Montreal.
[00:04:39] Erin Brown We name it, you do it.
[00:04:40] Francois-David Pare Exactly.
[00:04:41] Erin Brown Okay. So diving into the Litigation Trends Survey, which were excited to pick your brain on today. What's your sense of why NRF prepares the survey every year?
[00:04:52] Francois-David Pare Well, that's a good question. I'm going to answer it by saying what value I see in it. I see value for for both the firm and the legal markets on on two fronts, I would say. The first one is that the survey gives you an understanding of the type of litigations that respondents are involved in. So you can you can see the trends, you can see what's out there, what people are involved in it. Give you an example. One of the interesting statistics from this year surveys that 61 percent of the respondents are involved in regulatory proceedings. So, and we see an uptick. We've we've see an increase from the previous year by almost 20 percent. So obviously, you can see from from that statistics that people are involved in regulatory proceedings both in in Canada and the U.S, on a on a smaller scale, but still interesting. I'm going to give you an example for for ESG, related litigation, where this year 1 in 10 respondents said they were they were involved in those type of litigations, compared to only 2 percent in in 2022. And and that's something that we actually anticipated and said in our in our survey last year that we anticipated an increase in in ESG litigation. So this would be the first value I see in the report what type of litigation people are involved in. The second would be what's top of mind, what's keeping GCs and in-house counsel awake at night, because we survey their preoccupations and where they see an increase in litigation or increase in risks. Another example of that from this year, which is probably the biggest highlight I see in this, or the biggest piece of information I see from this survey, is that 40 percent of the respondents felt more exposed to cybersecurity and data protection litigation. And so again, this tells us that cyber is top of mind and and that at least for almost half of our respondents, they they feel that they're going to be more exposed to it. So obviously that's a big concern. And there's also a part of the survey, which is more I'd say, I have administrative in mind, but that's not the right word. But anyway, more geared towards legal spend the size of of the of the in-house, legal departments on from the respondents to the level of of preparedness, the field. So there's also information on on not specifically on litigation, but on on the management of the the in-house in-house legal departments as well.
[00:07:31] Ted Brook I like the way you put that. Sort of like there's value for companies who are dealing with litigation because you can just sort of see, like are we the only ones facing this uptick or is this a market wide issue? Is it specific to our sector or is that unique to to our, you know, business? Specifically. But then, as you said, there's also value for for us as external counsel. So we can see what is keeping our clients up at night. And that's what I like most about reading the report, is looking for those things where I know that the clients I'm working with are probably falling into certain categories, and then and then I can get a better sense of of how we can help them.
[00:08:12] Francois-David Pare After that we can we can slice and dice the data to look for industry specific concerns or, and all type of of analysis and and modulations that we get from from the survey. And so it provides a wealth of of information to to both us and and the market. And honestly it gives you also a a global view, a global snapshot because we're we've surveyed this year more than 400 GCs and in-house counsel, both in Canada and the U.S. clients and non clients. Because we want to give a, I'm going to say a more fulsome or unbiased approach to it. And it's also completed by in depth survey with certain of our clients to to to to complete the the actual information gathering. So it's it's it's useful and it's complete.
[00:09:03] Erin Brown You know, you mentioned sort of the the increase in regulatory proceedings. Do you have a sense of what's driving that?
[00:09:09] Francois-David Pare Yes. Well, in in in in various areas we've seen I'd say probably that the three industries where we've seen the the greatest anticipated optics or technology, we've seen also an uptick in consumer, markets and also in in energy with respect to technology, like I said, I mean, cybersecurity, data privacy, they are top of mind. We've seen new legislation. There's, people out there, the the DC bills, Bill C-27 being discussed. We've seen even recently some experts I'm thinking of Yoshua Bengio came out in La Presse saying that, and he's probably one of the most prominent experts in in in AI, saying that, you know what, the government needs to legislate and fast, it creates a national risk because, the technology is evolving so fast and the legislature is not keeping up. And so in terms of regulatory risk, technologies out there, consumer market also, I mean, it's we've seen a lot of changes recently and changes coming up. Quebec adopted last year in in August, changes to its Consumer Protection Act on on program obsolescence. I was reading recently that Ontario is planning for big changes to its CPA. New Brunswick is coming up actually with with the first iteration of a CPA, their first consumer protection act. And so consumer market is also definitely an area where we are going to see some increased increased efforts from from the regulators, but also increased risk for for for companies out there evolving in those markets.
[00:10:54] Erin Brown Yeah, it was actually one of the things that struck me about the highlights of the report is that most of the areas or, you know, several of the key areas where we're seeing an uptick in litigation are sort of going hand in hand with regulatory changes and updates. So ESG, for example, I do quite a bit of work with our ESG team in Canada on the modern slavery reporting requirements. Those are coming into effect in May of or, you know, requiring reports to be submitted, this year, including, you know, a deadline of May 31st for a lot of companies. So companies are assessing their supply chains, they're looking at their suppliers, they're looking at, you know, supply chain ethics and supply chain transparency as part of that. And then there's a similar trend that's noted for cybersecurity, where, you know, which, as you say, is that is the area that seems to have the biggest growth in terms of, you know, potential for litigation, or at least you know, that the perception of the potential for for disputes there. And it's noted that there's also sort of, kind of data protection regulations there have have grown in complexity. So, you know, it's sort of got me thinking about the interplay between litigation and the potential for disputes. And, you know, how that goes hand in hand with regulatory changes. Are these just, you know, is it just a coincidence or is it that, you know, expanding and changing regulations drive litigation between private parties or just that, you know, these are hot topics that everybody's sort of thinking about at the same time, regulators are regulating companies are looking into it and it's sparking. So.
[00:12:27] Ted Brook It's such a good question. I was thinking, actually, that what's most interesting to me is how although regulatory investigations are increasing, cybersecurity data protection becoming major uptick and governance concerns. The things that are staying the same are also very interesting, right? We're continuing to see contract litigation and employment labor litigation top of mind for everyone. And it's neat to see how that that continues year over year. How are these areas are still, you know, they may not be new, but they are certainly front of mind for people. I don't know if you've seen that in your practice either.
[00:13:06] Francois-David Pare Absolutely. With the pandemics and and the concerns with availability of labor, we've seen a lot of even class actions on that wages. And so we we these are usual type of litigation that we see on and on. And and and then there's the to your point Erin, there's the increased risk that goes along with increased regulations. And we see that both in regularly regulatory proceedings from the government offer from from regulatory regulators or organizations out there. But we also see it on the private sector. We see it in class actions, obviously, with the a more stringent regulatory scheme. Sometimes it takes a little time for for companies out there to adapt to it and then boom, they're hit with a class action because they've reached a newly adopted regulation. And so those are definitely linked together. The increase in in in in regulate regulation with the increase in litigation.
[00:14:07] Ted Brook Switching gears a little bit this is a North American survey right. We've we've got U.S. respondents. We've got Canadian respondents. In in your view FDP, is there anything unique or interesting about Canada compared to the US? Like we do have different litigation markets, but there's also a lot of cross-border similarities. So I'm, I'm curious if if there was anything that jumped out to you in the report.
[00:14:32] Francois-David Pare Well, our politicians are a bit different, but we don't see that from the survey. But, yeah, I mean from the report, what I can see, one one thing that struck me was, with respect, actually, to regulatory investigations and proceedings, because in Canada, more than half of the report of the respondents expected a rise in regulatory investigations, where in the US it was less than 40 percent. And this is actually a question that I asked Stephane Eljarrat during our webinars, because I hope I'll have a few a few, minutes at the end to talk about the the webinars that we did. But I asked him why, and and it was a very interesting answer. And I I invite everyone to to go and listen to it. But in a nutshell, Canada is probably a less, I'm going to say mature, that's not the word you used to use the better word, but I mean.
[00:15:26] Erin Brown Advanced.
[00:15:27] Francois-David Pare Advanced. Yeah, you know, less I don't want to say sophisticated develop is probably the better word, but also less funded. And that's something that we see that our our organizations are or I've been probably less funding. And so there was less less investigations, less prosecutions. But we see a change. We see a change. And good examples were discussed during the webinar. Eric Lefebvre discussed about antitrust, where we saw last year changes in the antitrust rules, where they now have sanctions that go up to, I mean, significant monetary amount, but also that could lead to imprisonment. That's that's something that came in last year.
[00:16:06] Erin Brown There's further changes coming down the pipe there as well that will actually, if they're implemented, just transform the competition litigation landscape. But that I think deserves its own episode later in the later in the season. And we might have to get think on for that one, but sorry. Continue.
[00:16:22] Francois-David Pare Absolutely. No. And and he was also saying that, you know, the the Competition Bureau was actually going to increase its funding of its of its investigations and prosecutions. So, we see we see those changes and then we can explain why probably Canadian respondents are more concerned about those regulatory investigation and proceeding than than in the US. And so that's another interesting aspect of of the difference between U.S. and Canada. In my area of practice and class actions, we saw that there was an increase in in personal injury class actions. And that's that's something specific to the U.S because we didn't used to see personal injury class action in the U.S. because basically the the the procedure was not adapted to individualized claim or individualized specificities. But now we see some some spinoff to this and we see an uptick in in personal injury class actions that we don't don't really see in Canada because it's not our reality.
[00:17:22] Erin Brown Right. And I'm sure there's probably some health care. There's a whole kind of array of, I met one of our awesome health care practitioners at at a seminar in the summer that Norton Rose Fulbright hosted. And and sort of it struck me that that's just a whole area that really doesn't exist in the same way in Canada, because our health care is obviously, you know, very distracted, very differently.
[00:17:42] Ted Brook Was was that in our our New York or Texas offices?
[00:17:47] Erin Brown I think it's I think he's from our Texas office. And we'll have to.
[00:17:49] Ted Brook Yeah, yeah. They've got a good team down there.
[00:17:51] Erin Brown Yeah. The other thing FDP, we've moved along. I'm calling you FDP now. There you go. There. I think you had a, you had a quote actually in the survey, discussing this sort of regulatory difference in Canada where it's actually sort of more anticipated by Canadian Council than US Council. And you had mentioned, I think, the sort of lens that the deferred prosecution agreements, bring to this and how there may be sort of these additional tools for prosecutors can actually lead to. While you might look at it and think, oh, deferred prosecutions means there's, you know, just at the very base, maybe less exposure for companies, but it actually could drive more litigation or disputes because you know, it's an additional tool that prosecutors can pursue.
[00:18:42] Francois-David Pare Correct. And it's quite new. I mean, we we actually negotiated the first deferred prosecution agreement in Canada a couple of years back. And so and when you compare it to the U.S., they have been doing this for for for for years and years. And so obviously, that's another possibility for for corporations are there obviously you don't wish that to to anyone to have to do to enter that that type of negotiations. But it's it's available and and and sometimes it saves companies and jobs. It's it's a new tool that the prosecution has. And, I mean, we should use it when opportune.
[00:19:47] Ted Brook I feel like we scratched the surface. We barely scratched the surface of the report. There's a lot of information here, as you said FDP, it's like sliced and diced different ways, whether it's by sector or by issue. Honestly, do you have any ideas or tips for what a GC or any in-house counsel can like do with all this information? Like it's kind of like drinking from a firehose. Like there's just so much here. What what should someone do if they're taking a look at this?
[00:20:17] Francois-David Pare Look at the highlights. See what concerns other GCs out there. We have a good snapshot of of the market. And then look at how this translates or how this affects your company. And we've talked about cybersecurity and data protection, which is probably what's most top of mind to to clients. Well, maybe it's a good opportunity to to look at, what you've implemented internally in terms of how prepared are you, if if ever a situation happens, how will you be able to react to you have breach counsel that will be able to be on the floor at the very moment this thing happens? Because, from experience, what we see in in the litigations is that courts and in the judgment is that courts are actually looking at the reasonableness of the behavior of of the of the companies. And and they look at how prepared they were and how responsive they were. And so we talk about litigation. Litigation is is is is the result of something that occurred prior. And if you can avoid litigation altogether, it's always better. One of the takeaways from the from the report, I think is what's top of mind, what's coming up, what's out there. And have you addressed this. You in in your with your with your lawyers in house, with your board and how prepare are you for these anticipated rises in litigation.
[00:21:44] Erin Brown I think that's a really good point. And one of the things that I was asking you before we started recording was, you know, in terms of preparedness for addressing litigation over the next year. One of the things that was a bit surprising to me in the report is that rising fees of outside counsel was actually the number one concern that was raised by in-house counsel in not feeling prepared for potential litigation or disputes coming down the pipe. And I was sort of asking you how clients, you know, if you have any suggestions for clients, how to on how to manage this. And I think, you know, what you conveyed in in that discussion was that the easiest way is to be prepared. Well, I'll let you actually give your answer. But, you know, I think that the idea was to sort of be prepared at the outset, you know, and have your your affairs in order to try to avoid, you know, potential litigation coming down the pipe. And then, of course, having a great roster of people to call when you need them.
[00:22:39] Francois-David Pare No. Absolutely. And obviously, you need to address big pieces of litigation as as projects you need good. You need lawyers that are excellent litigators and excellent lawyers, but you also need strong project managers. That's the best way to to control the fees. But by being prepared, these is always the I mean, avoiding litigation altogether is always better. But if you can't obviously we're talking litigation. We're talking unexpected. And and fees are always a challenge to anticipate. Then I see I see a no surprise approach with with clients. I mean clients should should demand visibility. What we have planned ahead. What are the next phases? How will this application or this discovery cost? And then they can decide. I find that I have very, very little difficulty with fees when clients are involved and when they have no surprises. And so I think it's all part of firms that invest in strong project management. Being able to have the technology to keep the clients informed and in having a transparent way of of communicating that information so they can, I mean, track budget to actuals or track whatever alternative fee arrangement that you've put together. But then, I mean, the basic is having the right people with the right expertise due to the right level of work, you know, and then trying to anticipate as much as you can and have no surprises in the in a very unexpected environment. You know, we're on controlled environment, I should say.
[00:24:20] Ted Brook Yeah. No, I agree completely. Our LPM team, like I use them all the time. They're they're fantastic with.
[00:24:27] Erin Brown The acronyms again here. Right. I cannot.
[00:24:30] Francois-David Pare Legal Project.
[00:24:31] Ted Brook I guess I'm as bad as some some government organizations in a way, but but they they they are very good at I couldn't do my type of practice, which like you FDP is a lot of class action work without legal project managers. Right? It's just it's ingrained in what we do now. And maybe we should Erin, have have some of that team on on the show.
[00:24:53] Erin Brown You both just sort of touched on this idea of of sort of surprises and trying to avoid surprises. Did you know, FDP question for you? But Ted, feel free to chime in with your thoughts too. Were either of you surprised by anything that you saw in this report?
[00:25:09] Ted Brook I'll. One thing did surprise me, and maybe it was just my ignorance, but there's there's a difference in the types of concerns that the respondents had. And there was a difference in the most important attributes for working with outside counsel that the respondents had, depending on what level of market the business was in. So, depending on the revenue range of the client, clients, you know, who are in the highest revenue range are actually looking for different things and outside counsel. Then clients in mid-market or the more owner operated respondents and and I guess the maybe that should have made sense to me, but it was surprising to see the data, how that actually impacts their expectations of counsel and their concerns about what's in front of them.
[00:26:00] Francois-David Pare That's interesting. I mean, I'm a bit biased because I've seen the reports, I mean, coming out every year, and so I can follow the trends and whatnot, but something that at first glance came out at me was industry specific. We saw an increase in concern from the financial sector in ESG related dispute. And, I mean, I'm not at all like you are. Erin, an ESG lawyer, and I and I know very little about it, but I was wondering why would this industry specifically be more concerned? But then it allows you to to dig in and try to find what's happening. And I saw that the Canadian Securities Administrators will actually start requiring mandatory ESG and climate risk disclosure for Canadian banks and NFIs, and I think insurance companies. And so you can explain and then you you kind of have a reason and find a reason why you see these trends. And it all made sense. And so that was one of the areas that that surprised me to be honest. But no, the the main, the main trends, I mean trends, I mean, I follow them every year.
[00:27:09] Erin Brown So that's a really interesting that's a really interesting point about industry specific. And it actually goes along with something that that really struck me at the report I was looking at. There's a section that breaks down the biggest area of concern by industry. When you look at the concerns by industry obviously the report had highlighted cybersecurity as being, you know, a huge area of growth and every single industry ranked that as either their number one or number two concern except technology, which I thought was kind of interesting. But I think it, you know, and I'm just speculating, but it, you know, sort of goes along with what, of course, what David was just saying that different things happen at different time in different industries. And I was sort of speculating that it could be that cybersecurity issues and data protection issues and AI has just been on the radar of the technology industry for so much longer that they're just sort of ahead of the, you know, ahead of the curve on that. I'm just speculating. But that that was kind of one thing I thought, and I think that, you know, maybe sort of goes to your point of the the financial industry, you know, has maybe not had to, you know, be at the forefront as much on ESG because a lot of at least, you know, a lot of what I'm working on now on ESG is supply chains, import export concerns related to, you know, whether you're importing something from a region that's using child labor or forced labor, which isn't as much of a concern in the financial industry, which is dealing, you know, more in services, though of course, that, you know, the sanctions piece and the corruption pieces is potentially at the forefront for those industries. But but yeah, there's some interesting trends by industry.
[00:28:50] Francois-David Pare For other industries on ESG, it was greenwashing that was top of mind. And so with different industries, different concern, different preoccupations.
[00:28:59] Ted Brook Absolutely. Now people are listening to this at home or at work, and they actually want to see all the pretty graphs and charts and and pie charts and explanations, FDP. How can someone learn more about the survey and how can they actually get their hands on it?
[00:29:15] Francois-David Pare So the survey is on our website. I'm a Google kind of guy. So if you if you Google Litigation Trend Survey 2024 Norton Rose Fulbright, you're you'll get a link directly to it. And you can you can look at the graphs and look at the data. Obviously we're we're more than happy to chat about it if you're interested. We've recorded two seminars, one in English and one in French. The English seminar, webinar we've talked about, cybersecurity, ESG and special situations and proxy battles. And on the French side, we've also covered cybersecurity and data protection because like we said, it's top of mind, but we've addressed class actions and antitrust, and also regulatory investigations and proceedings and and and non ethical, misconduct. And that would also be available very soon. I would recommend googling it. Webinar, litigation trends, Norton rose. I'm sure you're going to get access to it. We have a a webinar page on our website. And, and they're all posted there, and they should be available by the time you actually listen to this podcast. It will probably be on our website.
[00:30:22] Ted Brook Fantastic. We'll we'll definitely put links into the description of this episode so people can also get them there too.
[00:30:29] Francois-David Pare Thank you for that. And you get CLE credits if you watch the seminar, the webinars you're going to get CLE credit. So all the better.
[00:30:36] Ted Brook All lawyers are trying to gather those before the end of the year.
[00:30:39] Francois-David Pare It's not top of mind from the survey, but I'm sure it is for everyone listening.
[00:30:44] Erin Brown Well, speaking of thank yous. Thank you so much for joining us and talking about all of these trends and bringing your experience and your insights, and for being Ted and my guinea pig for a first together.
[00:30:57] Ted Brook I think it a success. Yeah. Thanks so much, FDP.
[00:31:01] Francois-David Pare Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure, guys.
[00:31:06] Ted Brook Well, that was fun.
[00:31:08] Erin Brown Yeah, I think we did. I don't know, I think we did a pretty good job for our first episode as co-hosts.
[00:31:13] Ted Brook I think we probably had it easy because FDP is is a pretty good guest.
[00:31:17] Erin Brown Yeah. What a, what an amazing litigator and just a fantastic brain that man has.
[00:31:22] Ted Brook Yeah. Oh, it's true as well. Who who do you think we should talk to for our our next episode of Undisputed?
[00:31:29] Erin Brown Oh, I think we have a lot of people to talk to this season because there's so much that this report gives us to unpack. But I think cybersecurity and regulatory investigations are hot contenders.
[00:31:40] Ted Brook Yeah, I'm I'm torn between cybersecurity and regulatory investigations. What do you think?
[00:31:47] Erin Brown I think our guests are going to have to wait and see.
[00:31:51] Ted Brook Sounds good.
[00:31:56] Erin Brown Thank you for listening to Undisputed. A Disputed spin off. To learn more and download our 2024 Litigation Trends survey, visit Litigationtrends.com or visit the link in our show notes.
[00:32:09] Ted Brook And you can subscribe to Disputed on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts currently so that you won't miss any of our episodes.
